guardian_learning | 第九十五天

nnozomi posting in

语法
最 + adjective for the superlative (a nice straightforward one, is this review? oh well.)
https://resources.allsetlearning.com/chinese/grammar/Superlative_%22zui%22

词汇
等, wait (pinyin in tags)
https://mandarinbean.com/new-hsk-1-word-list/

Guardian:
等等，把这个拿走. Wait, take this with you.
赵云澜，虽然我们认识的时间不长，可我已经把你当成我最好的朋友了. Zhao Yunlan, we have not known each other very long, but I already consider you my best friend.
这是我奶奶最喜欢的菜, this is my grandmother's favorite food.

My practice:
你已经等了他两个小时了吧，最好放弃了他。
他是最了解我的人。

Flat | Top-Level Comments Only

From:

laireshi

等, wait
AHH, the xieping angst one. An actual sentence from my Chinese course that hit me with feels:

都走了十年了，你还在等什么？

From:

nnozomi

都走了十年了，你还在等什么？
wow, yeah, that is definitely a xieping sentence. 我等你等了很久了 is the practice sentence that got to me, even though I still don't understand its grammar...

From:

trobadora

最 is one of those characters that, for inexplicable reasons, just won't stick in my head. Anyone have any tips for getting it to stick? *tears hair*

SHL quotes of the day (something lighthearted for a change):

WKX: 阿絮，你到底是在躲谁呀？
ZZS: 我最想躲的人就是你。

And WKX again: 阿絮，你别走那么快嘛，等等我。

(Early episodes dynamic! Very fun, though I prefer the slightly-later stuff.)

From:

nnozomi

Anyone have any tips for getting it to stick? *tears hair*
not really...:( do you mean hard to remember when reading or when writing, or both? I used to think of it as "the sun, the ear, and the plain little table" but how to remember that as "the most" is anybody's guess.

and thanks to WKX and ZZS I have now learned 躲！ and for the first time realized that it's different from the one in 耳朵, oh dear.

From:

trobadora

do you mean hard to remember when reading or when writing, or both?

Ha, never mind writing - every time I see 最 I think "yeah, that sure is a character I've seen before", but I can never remember which. (Though it's usually possible to work it out from context.)

From:

grayswandir

I can't really think of any kind of mnemonics either... all I can say is, this is one of the relatively few characters I know how to write, and I've never had any trouble recognizing it since I learned how to write it. But that's probably true for writing characters in general, and "just learn to write them all" is obviously not helpful advice. XD

On a side note, I went to Baidu looking to see if there'd be anything helpful there, and now this is another character where I'm going, "WHY did they bother to simplify it???"

Mainland vs. Taiwan vs. Hong Kong vs. Japan. vs. Korea:

(I actually learned it the Taiwan way, because I think the traditional script on my computer is Taiwan-based. I didn't even know the top part was supposed to be a sun! I think one of the reasons I found this character memorable after I learned to write it was because it had an interesting component at the top that I didn't recognize as any kind of radical. *facepalm*)

From:

trobadora

But that's probably true for writing characters in general

Yeah, agreed. I guess I really need to practice writing more ...

"WHY did they bother to simplify it???"

That is a very good question! Though is it simplification or a different style of writing that radical? I'd have assumed the latter ...

I didn't even know the top part was supposed to be a sun!

You mean 日? The dictionary says the top component isn't 日 rì, it's 曰 yuē ...

From:

grayswandir

the dictionary says the top component isn't 日 rì, it's 曰 yuē ...

Huh! I was actually just taking

nnozomi's word about it being a sun, but Baidu, Pleco, and Wiktionary are all telling me it is (日, not 曰). Maybe there are differing opinions about it???

(To be honest I've never actually paid that much attention to differentiating between 日/曰, since I don't think I've noticed any instances where using the wrong one would change what character you'd written. :P I should keep it in mind that they're different, though. There are a a few others radicals I always mix up, like 夂/夊 and 廴/辶...)

is it simplification or a different style of writing that radical?

I can't think of any other characters with a sun on top that are written like that in traditional, so if so, it seems like it only applies to certain specific characters, rather than a different way of writing the radical in general. But it does make sense that maybe by "simplified" they sometimes just mean "the one used on the mainland" regardless of whether that's an actual simplification or just a particular transcription style.

From:

trobadora

Huh, that's fascinating! MDBG says it's 曰, and that's been my go-to dictionary for these things. It didn't occur to me to check a second dictionary! But clearly I should have, LOL.

Hm, googling around just now it seems the top component may have originated as neither 日 nor 曰, but as 冃, which could account for the different interpretations ...

(Hey, maybe all this talk about the character will finally get it to stick in my head! :p)

From:

grayswandir

(Hey, maybe all this talk about the character will finally get it to stick in my head! :p)

Hah, yes. XD Now you just need to associate all this with "most" somehow...

googling around just now it seems the top component may have originated as neither 日 nor 曰, but as 冃

Oh, cool, that's the way I've been writing it. XD But I'm glad to know what radical(s?) it's filed under, too, now. (And also hopefully now if I see it with an actual 日 on top I won't be confused!)

ETA: So on Wiktionary the definition page shows that 日 is the radical, but then meanwhile, the character is listed on both the radical page for 日 and the page for 冂... So maybe it actually has a different radical in traditional vs. simplified...

Edited Date: 2022-04-17 12:22 am (UTC)

From:

trobadora

Hah, yes. XD Now you just need to associate all this with "most" somehow...

I think it may work if I can remember I was complaining about "most" when we discussed it. Pretty ridiculous and roundabout, I know, but if it works ... *g*

ETA: So on Wiktionary the definition page shows that 日 is the radical, but then meanwhile, the character is listed on both the radical page for 日 and the page for 冂... So maybe it actually has a different radical in traditional vs. simplified...

Ha, the plot thickens! Seriously, this kind of stuff is fascinating to me even if it does complicate things.

From:

nnozomi

Seriously, this kind of stuff is fascinating to me even if it does complicate things.

The best way to look at it... ("the radical for this character has the MOST complicated backstory, oh right, it must mean 'most'"?)

From:

trobadora

"the radical for this character has the MOST complicated backstory, oh right, it must mean 'most'"

Hee! That works! :D

From:

nnozomi

Thank you for actually checking into all this! I am way more confused than I was, but also more interested. (Moral of the story, don't take my word for anything to do with characters!)
(I wonder why it's 月 that ends up in so many false equivalences of one kind or another, like all the 月/肉 radicals...).

From:

grayswandir

Oh, no, it's not 月 either. XD That would be way too simple! It's 冂 plus two inner strokes that don't connect to the sides. (So... identical to 月 but with the inner lines not connected.) Even better, right?

(I do get very mixed up between 月/肉 as side radicals, though. And it's not like the other ones where I never bothered to learn the difference, it's just so hard to actually tell them apart!)

don't take my word for anything to do with characters!

I mean, several places including Baidu and Pleco agree with you that it's a sun radical, so even if that's not the only correct description, it's not like you were wrong! (And the Japanese transcription is pretty clearly 日, even if the others might not be...)

From:

trobadora

I do get very mixed up between 月/肉 as side radicals, though. And it's not like the other ones where I never bothered to learn the difference, it's just so hard to actually tell them apart!

I thought it was just a difference in etymology. How do you tell them apart?

ETA: No, wait, that's a traditional/simplified difference, right? There's no visual difference in simplified?

Edited Date: 2022-04-17 11:44 pm (UTC)

From:

grayswandir

Now that I'm looking into it, you're right, they look exactly identical in most fonts, which I'd never actually realized! I don't think it's a simplified/traditional thing -- I think most fonts just aren't bothering to differentiate them? Here's a comparison in DFKai font, which does distinguish:

Wiktionary says "These may be written identically as 月, but in careful use they are distinguished, with the inside of ⺼ being written with unattached diagonal strokes." I think I learned to write it that way when I first practiced radicals on Skritter, and just assumed it was always supposed to look like that -- I thought the diagonal lines just looked straight in small font sizes! (Another thing learned today! XD)

From:

trobadora

Oh, huh, that's fascinating (again!). Wikipedia says "When used as a left component, the radical character transforms into 月 in Simplified Chinese and Japanese or ⺼ in modern Traditional Chinese used in Hong Kong and Taiwan" ...

From:

grayswandir

Huh! Maybe it is different in simplified vs. traditional, then. Wiktionary seems to prioritize traditional script, so maybe whoever wrote the section I quoted wasn't taking into account (or just didn't bother to mention) that "in careful use they are distinguished" may only apply in places that use traditional characters...

(I'm glad I'm not the only one who's fascinated by all this! :D )

From:

nnozomi

I'm pretty sure I was taught with regard to Japanese that there was no visible/writable difference between 月月 and 肉月 as radicals, just that the actual derivation was different and that's why all the internal organs had moons on them. So yeah, it may be a traditional-only thing.

(Tangentially, it reminds me of manufacturers' frequent tendency to typo 内蔵, built in, as
内臓, internal organs--the difference is just the 月. Unintentional anthropomorphizing?)

From:

grayswandir

Unintentional anthropomorphizing?

Hah, I can see how those would be easily confused!

(On a side note, huh, somehow I don't think I'd ever made the connection before that 臓 is just 蔵 + 肉/月. That is a rather straightforward etymology! For some reason I've never had any trouble recognizing 臓, but I think realizing they're the same may help me remember 蔵 better...)

From:

nnozomi

For some reason I've never had any trouble recognizing 臓, but I think realizing they're the same may help me remember 蔵 better...
Glad to be of use! In Japanese 蔵 and 臓 are actually pronounced the same too, so they're easier to associate (and easier to get wrong).

From:

grayswandir

Actually, they can be pronounced the same in Chinese, too -- as a noun (meaning "storehouse"), 藏 is pronounced zàng, the same as 臟.

Oh, hah... I just checked Wiktionary to get the pinyin, and under the noun form of 藏 (zàng) it actually says "Original form of 臟／脏 (zàng, “internal organs”)." So I guess technically you could say "內藏=organs" is archaic rather than wrong. XD

From:

nnozomi

Actually, they can be pronounced the same in Chinese, too -- as a noun (meaning "storehouse"), 藏 is pronounced zàng, the same as 臟.
Oh that's good to know! (Chinese, you already have tones, PLEASE pronounce your characters just one way.)

So I guess technically you could say "內藏=organs" is archaic rather than wrong. XD
哈哈哈 :)

From:

presumenothing

Oh hey this is literally the first time I'm seeing either character with anything but 月, so +1 on it probably being a traditional-only difference?

From:

grayswandir

This just keeps getting more confusing. XD I was doing flashcards last night and one of the simplified character cards that came up was for 胜/勝, and on the card it clearly showed ONLY the simplified version with the angled strokes for 肉, and straight lines like 月 in the traditional character. Whaaaat.

I ended up opening Word and trying them both in a few fonts, with these results:

On checking Wiktionary, it turns out apparently the simplified and traditional versions actually have completely different radicals (simplified: radical is 肉; traditional: lefthand component is 月, radical is 刀...), so that explains why the lines are straight for the traditional ones in this case. But if angled lines for 肉 is a traditional thing, why do some of these fonts use angled lines for 胜 which is a simplified character??? >_>

(And, typing this comment has made me realize why I always thought they were written differently! That's apparently how my computer's default Chinese font always shows them. For me, "胜" -- the simplified character! -- shows on my screen with angled strokes, not straight.)

*flails*

Edited Date: 2022-04-18 11:34 pm (UTC)

From:

presumenothing

since I don't think I've noticed any instances where using the wrong one would change what character you'd written

Yeah, as far as I can think of the difference only really comes in relevant* when they're used as individual characters… but unless you're reading 论语 on a daily basis (子曰 blah de dah) it doesn't exactly come up often either.

* Unless you have the kind of teacher who marks you down for stroke inaccuracies ~~(so, all Chinese teachers ever??)~~ in which case it still matters. On which note I'd say 曰 is the "correct" radical here for the Mainland Edition™ of the character, since I recall being taught not to close(?) the horizontal stroke inside…

From:

grayswandir

so, all Chinese teachers ever??

XD

You know, this whole conversation has made me realize I should probably be using a more calligraphy-like font for my writing-practice flashcards, because the one I'm using is very... non-handwriting-y, and doesn't indicate stuff like "don't close this stroke," which I should probably at least try to be aware of...

From:

presumenothing

*record scratch* *freeze frame* *me realising more than a decade later why our textbooks were mostly(?) in 楷体 despite it being, y'know, not super space efficient*

From:

trobadora

On which note I'd say 曰 is the "correct" radical here for the Mainland Edition™ of the character, since I recall being taught not to close(?) the horizontal stroke inside…

Thank you, that is good to know!

From:

yaaurens

我最喜欢的才是巧克力，哈哈哈哈哈
等等我，给我十分！
我的飞机一半小时等了行李. (I have no idea if that's right at all)

I just noticed that the tags are getting wrangled! They look good and way more useful!