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guardian_learningBy popular request, I typed up the exercise sheets from last year's Chinese course on the topic of 才vs. 就. This will probably not lessen the confusion, I'm sorry to say. Those two are hard nuts to crack. I hope it'll at least be a little helpful, anyway.
1) Emphasizes that an action takes/took place „later than expected“. The opposite of 就.
他晚上十二点才睡觉，早上五点就起床了。
2) An action that took place „just now/only now“ - in that case can be replaced with 刚.
他才上课。/ 他刚上课。
3) Denotes the second one in a sequence of two actions, meaning „only then/and then“.
老师来了，教室里才开始安静。
1) Emphasizes that an action takes place „immediately“. In this case it means the same as 马上 and is the opposite of 才.
他一到家就看电视。/ 他一到家马上看电视。
2) Means „just/only“, denoting the (low) number of something. It means the same as 只 or 仅.
妹妹就认识这一百个汉字。/ 妹妹只认识这一百个汉字。/ 妹妹仅认识这一百个汉字。
3) Emphasizes that an action is taking/took place „already/earlier than expected“. In this case it means the same as 已经 and is the opposite of 才.
八点上课，他七点就来了。/ 八点上课，他七点已经来了。
4) It can also mean „really“, affirming something that was brought up before.
他想买的就是这种词典。
5) It can be used to express a „wish“ or „intention“ (also meaning something like „really“).
我就不相信我今天做不完这份功课。
6) It can be used in a conditional sense, meaning „then“.
哥哥去我就去。/ 如果哥哥去我就去。
Note that when there’s a time given, 就 will use 了, but 才 won’t.
Examples:
他现在才吃饭。 他昨天八点才吃饭。
1. 不到八点，你 _____ 要睡觉了。
2. 他来这个地方的时候，_____ 十九岁。
3. 你想吃什么， 我 _____ 给你做什么。
4. 他每次一想到能去上课，_____ 很高兴。
5. 我们公司的李小姐 _____ 到北京两天。
6. 都已经十点了，你怎么 _____ 来上课
7. 他教孩子学汉语的时候，孩子 _____ 两岁多。
8. 在外面工作了，_____ 知道在家好。
9. 他晚上十一点 _____ 回家。他妻子已经睡觉了。
10. 酒喝完了，你 _____ 知道，这个酒好不好。
11. 他太累了，晚上八点 _____ 睡觉了。
12. 去年比较冷，德国十月 _____ 下雪了。
13. 他四十岁 _____ 学会开车。
14. 他先工作了几年，三十五岁 _____ 上大学。
15. 李老师早上五点半 _____ 去公园运动。
16. 他很少回国，两三年 ______ 回去一次。
17. 他经常一年 ______ 回去两三次。
18. 她九岁 ______ 上学。
19. 她五岁 ______ 上学了。
20. 昨天她十点 ______ 起床。
21. 我等了半天车 ______ 来。
22. Bill来中国以前 ______ 学汉语了。
23. 她吃了两片药感冒 ______ 好了。
24. 他早 ______ 下班了。
25. Bob ______ 来上海半年，中文 ______ 已经说得不错了。
I'll post the correct answers in a comment.
eta: i found ten more... :)
才 vs. 就
才 only (re: time), only now, only then
1) Emphasizes that an action takes/took place „later than expected“. The opposite of 就.
他晚上十二点才睡觉，早上五点就起床了。
2) An action that took place „just now/only now“ - in that case can be replaced with 刚.
他才上课。/ 他刚上课。
3) Denotes the second one in a sequence of two actions, meaning „only then/and then“.
老师来了，教室里才开始安静。
就 right now, already, just (re: numbers), really, then
1) Emphasizes that an action takes place „immediately“. In this case it means the same as 马上 and is the opposite of 才.
他一到家就看电视。/ 他一到家马上看电视。
2) Means „just/only“, denoting the (low) number of something. It means the same as 只 or 仅.
妹妹就认识这一百个汉字。/ 妹妹只认识这一百个汉字。/ 妹妹仅认识这一百个汉字。
3) Emphasizes that an action is taking/took place „already/earlier than expected“. In this case it means the same as 已经 and is the opposite of 才.
八点上课，他七点就来了。/ 八点上课，他七点已经来了。
4) It can also mean „really“, affirming something that was brought up before.
他想买的就是这种词典。
5) It can be used to express a „wish“ or „intention“ (also meaning something like „really“).
我就不相信我今天做不完这份功课。
6) It can be used in a conditional sense, meaning „then“.
哥哥去我就去。/ 如果哥哥去我就去。
Note that when there’s a time given, 就 will use 了, but 才 won’t.
Examples:
他现在才吃饭。 他昨天八点才吃饭。
Exercises for 才 vs. 就
Fill with 才 or 就 :
1. 不到八点，你 _____ 要睡觉了。
2. 他来这个地方的时候，_____ 十九岁。
3. 你想吃什么， 我 _____ 给你做什么。
4. 他每次一想到能去上课，_____ 很高兴。
5. 我们公司的李小姐 _____ 到北京两天。
6. 都已经十点了，你怎么 _____ 来上课
7. 他教孩子学汉语的时候，孩子 _____ 两岁多。
8. 在外面工作了，_____ 知道在家好。
9. 他晚上十一点 _____ 回家。他妻子已经睡觉了。
10. 酒喝完了，你 _____ 知道，这个酒好不好。
11. 他太累了，晚上八点 _____ 睡觉了。
12. 去年比较冷，德国十月 _____ 下雪了。
13. 他四十岁 _____ 学会开车。
14. 他先工作了几年，三十五岁 _____ 上大学。
15. 李老师早上五点半 _____ 去公园运动。
16. 他很少回国，两三年 ______ 回去一次。
17. 他经常一年 ______ 回去两三次。
18. 她九岁 ______ 上学。
19. 她五岁 ______ 上学了。
20. 昨天她十点 ______ 起床。
21. 我等了半天车 ______ 来。
22. Bill来中国以前 ______ 学汉语了。
23. 她吃了两片药感冒 ______ 好了。
24. 他早 ______ 下班了。
25. Bob ______ 来上海半年，中文 ______ 已经说得不错了。
I'll post the correct answers in a comment.
eta: i found ten more... :)
no subject
Date: 2023-01-29 12:49 pm (UTC)solutions
1. 不到八点，你 ___就___ 要睡觉了。
2. 他来这个地方的时候，___才___ 十九岁。
3. 你想吃什么， 我 ___就___ 给你做什么。
4. 他每次一想到能去上课，___就___ 很高兴。
5. 我们公司的李小姐 ___才___ 到北京两天。
6. 都已经十点了，你怎么 ___才___ 来上课
7. 他教孩子学汉语的时候，孩子 ___才___ 两岁多。
8. 在外面工作了，___才/就___ 知道在家好。
9. 他晚上十一点 ___才___ 回家。他妻子已经睡觉了。
10. 酒喝完了，你 ___就___ 知道，这个酒好不好。
11. 他太累了，晚上八点 ___就___ 睡觉了。
12. 去年比较冷，德国十月 ___就___ 下雪了。
13. 他四十岁 ___才___ 学会开车。
14. 他先工作了几年，三十五岁 ___就___ 上大学。
15. 李老师早上五点半 ___就___ 去公园运动。
16. 他很少回国，两三年 ___才___ 回去一次。
17. 他经常一年 ___才___ 回去两三次。
18. 她九岁 ___才___ 上学。
19. 她五岁 ___就___ 上学了。
20. 昨天她十点 ___才___ 起床。
21. 我等了半天车 ___才___ 来。
22. Bill来中国以前 ___就___ 学汉语了。
23. 她吃了两片药感冒 ___就___ 好了。
24. 他早 ___就___ 下班了。
25. Bob ___才___ 来上海半年，中文 ___就___ 已经说得不错了。
no subject
Date: 2023-01-29 03:09 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2023-01-29 04:20 pm (UTC)Two hours this morning, more or less. It took away from my Sunday-morning f-list reading, but I hope I'll manage to get that done at some point today anyway...? /o\ (Totally worth it, of course.)
(I feel like I've learned 才 for "„just/only“, denoting the (low) number of something." as well, depending. Oh dear.)
I knooooow, I am not surprised! I had another rule sheet flying around that pretty much said the exact opposite of the one i ended up using. I stuck with this one mostly because it was more comprehensive.
But they *always always* contradict each other, it's so frustrating.
no subject
Date: 2023-01-29 10:52 pm (UTC)值得！ <3
But they *always always* contradict each other, it's so frustrating.
Yes! Why isn't there One Comprehensive List of Rules somewhere that's accurate.
no subject
Date: 2023-01-29 07:20 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2023-02-05 09:46 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2023-01-29 08:21 pm (UTC)My answers to the exercise sheet are below, including my comments/questions about the ones where I got a different answer from the answer key. (Those ones are marked with a red question mark instead of a green checkmark.)
[Spoiler cut for answers.]
1. 不到八点，你 [就] 要睡觉了。 (Canto: 就) ✔️
2. 他来这个地方的时候，[才] 十九岁。 (Canto: 啱啱) ✔️
3. 你想吃什么， 我 [就] 给你做什么。 (Canto: 就) ✔️
4. 他每次一想到能去上课，[就] 很高兴。 (Canto: 就) ✔️
5. 我们公司的李小姐 [才] 到北京两天。 (Canto: 啱啱) ✔️
6. 都已经十点了，你怎么 [才] 来上课。 (Canto: 啱啱) ✔️
7. 他教孩子学汉语的时候，孩子 [才] 两岁多。 (Canto: 啱啱) ✔️
8. 在外面工作了， [才] 知道在家好。 (Canto: 先) ✔️
9. 他晚上十一点 [才] 回家。他妻子已经睡觉了。 (Canto: 先) ✔️
10. 酒喝完了，你 [就/才] 知道，这个酒好不好。 (Canto: 就/先) ❓ [I think this one can go either way, but the answer key says 就. I would think that with 才 it would mean "only after you finish drinking the wine will you know whether or not it's good wine," whereas with 就 it's simply "after you finish drinking the wine, you'll know whether or not it's good wine."]
11. 他太累了，晚上八点 [就] 睡觉了。 (Canto: 就) ✔️
12. 去年比较冷，德国十月 [就] 下雪了。 (Canto: 就) ✔️ [I got this one correct, but if I hadn't been limited to two possible answers, I think I would have guessed 已经 rather than 就.]
13. 他四十岁 [就/才] 学会开车。 (Canto: 就/先) ❓ [I got this one wrong because I read 四十 as 14 instead of 40. XDDD Oops. Still, obvious mistake notwithstanding, I think it could still go either way. With 才 it's the more expected meaning of "He didn't learn to drive until he was 40," but with 就 I think it would just be a more neutral "At 40, he learned to drive."]
14. 他先工作了几年，三十五岁 [才] 上大学。 (Canto: 先) ❓ [I said 才; the key says 就. I'm confused about why this one would be 就 and not 才. Isn't it "He first worked for a few years, and didn't start college until he was 35"? Surely starting college at 35 is also surprisingly late, in a similar way to learning to drive at 40? Am I missing something on this one?]
15. 李老师早上五点半 [就] 去公园运动。 (Canto: 就) ✔️
16. 他很少回国，两三年 [才] 回去一次。 (Canto: 先) ✔️ [I got this one correct, but I did find it confusing and wasn't sure about my answer. I guess the second part of the sentence means "only in two or three years will he go back (again)." I think I would have expected something like 两三年之后, or maybe like 两三年过去了, rather than just 两三年, which seems confusing by itself to me!]
17. 他经常一年 [就] 回去两三次。 (Canto: 就) ❓ [Apparently the right answer is 才? I'm confused about this one. I was thinking it meant "He usually goes back two or three times per year," which would surely be 就? I'm not sure what it would mean with 才. Is it "Usually he only goes back two or three times per year?" Like, usually only after a year will he have finally gone back just two or three times? It seems like this would depend on thinking that two or three trips back was surprisingly few?]
18. 她九岁 [才] 上学。 (Canto: 先) ✔️
19. 她五岁 [就] 上学了。 (Canto: 就) ✔️
20. 昨天她十点 [才] 起床。 (Canto: 先) ✔️ [I got this one correct, because it seems like we're supposed to assume that 10:00 is a late time to get up, but I think it could just as easily be 就 -- again, a difference between "Yesterday she didn't get up until 10:00" vs. "Yesterday she got up at 10:00."]
21. 我等了半天车 [才] 来。 (Canto: 先) ✔️
22. Bill来中国以前 [就] 学汉语了。 (Canto: 就) ✔️
23. 她吃了两片药感冒 [就] 好了。 (Canto: 就) ✔️
24. 他早 [就] 下班了。 (Canto: 就) ✔️
25. Bob [才] 来上海半年，中文 [就] 已经说得不错了。 (Canto: 啱啱, 就) ✔️
no subject
Date: 2023-01-29 09:00 pm (UTC)10. 酒喝完了，你 [就/才] 知道，这个酒好不好。 (Canto: 就/先) ❓ [I think this one can go either way
As with so many of them... /o\ Not all, some are clear, but more than I would like are not.
14. 他先工作了几年，三十五岁 [才] 上大学。 (Canto: 先) ❓ [I said 才; the key says 就
You're right, I have no idea! I have it as 就 in my notes. Maybe I got it wrong and forgot to correct it? I totally follow your argument here. He only studied late in life, because he worked for a few years before. What do I know?
17. 他经常一年 [就] 回去两三次。 (Canto: 就) ❓ [Apparently the right answer is 才?
I do remember our discussion about this sentence, and I think the teacher confused us with that one, too. I do think the assumption is that "two or three times a year" is less than expected, and that's why he said it should be 才.
But the more exercises we made about it, the more arbitrary it seemed to me - depending on one's feelings about the issue, one could use one or the other. *shrug*
no subject
Date: 2023-01-29 09:51 pm (UTC)Yeah, exactly. The meanings seem distinct to me, but in a lot of cases I think you'd need to know the context to decide which meaning you actually want to pick. Whether you want to say "it happened at noon" or "it didn't happen until noon" is going to depend on whether noon seems late to you or not!
no subject
Date: 2023-01-31 11:15 am (UTC)Part of that arbitrary feeling is probably because the blanks (in general sentences, not just exercise) where 才 or 就 could fit in are structurally/grammatically gonna be pretty similar, meaning aside… which is why of course the context/intent really matters (even more than usual) haha.
no subject
Date: 2023-01-30 01:51 pm (UTC)Haven't read through the post proper, but +1 on these words never having occurred as being similar to me!
And heh yeah Duo has taught me 先 for 才 too, though I keep having a ???-moment out of always 先 associating it with the Mandarin meanings (which doesn't include the 才 one…)
no subject
Date: 2023-01-30 08:22 pm (UTC)As an aside, looking at Wiktionary, I just now learned that the word order for 先 (with the normal meaning of "first") is different in Mandarin and Cantonese. Or maybe just mainland Mandarin?? "In Standard Mandarin, 先 comes before the verb; in Cantonese, Teochew and Southeast Asian Mandarin, 先 comes after the verb (and elements such as verb aspect and verb object)." Their example sentences give Mandarin 我要先去洗手间 vs. Cantonese 我要去厕所先 (though I hear 洗手间 in Canto all the time, so I don't think that part is actually a difference).
no subject
Date: 2023-01-31 11:28 am (UTC)I feel like "Southeast Asia Mandarin" is essentially code for "cross-contamination with whatever the immigrant majority dialect happened to be, what is Standard"* LOL
But yeah while I think I'd default to 先 coming before almost all the time, I could also imagine saying something like 那我去换衣服先，我们等下五点见面？Though that said, 先 coming after does sound comprehensible-but-wrong to me in quite a lot of cases.
* literally me @ Duolingo on Canto-to-Mando exercises because it insists on making me answer in the "A比B还贵" order, when the "A还贵过B" literal parallel to the Canto construction it's teaching is right there (and is also what I actually use myself, Standard or no).
no subject
Date: 2023-01-31 11:43 am (UTC)Quick notes (on my phone, may have gotten some question numbers wrong while scrolling):
10 – agreed, 才 feels like an answer to someone going "can't you tell if it's a good wine from the label alone?" while 就 is a neutral statement.
13 – neutral statement would be like 他四十岁的时候学会开车, I'd save 就 for e.g. someone who learned early/the second they turned an eligible age.
14 – agreed on 才, I wouldn't use 就 unless, I dunno, the guy had to work for tuition fees (and therefore wow managed to earn enough for enrolment at 35??)
17 – definitely 才 given the hint of the first half of the sentence; 两三年回去一次 = "goes back once every 2-3 years", and 才 adds the nuance of "only".
20 – agreed with your comment, though I'd almost definitely add the 了 with 就, i.e. 十点就起床了.
23 – by same token as the others, you could have a pretty similar but opposite meaning construction, 吃了两片药才好了起来
no subject
Date: 2023-02-01 03:32 am (UTC)[should be 16] – definitely 才 given the hint of the first half of the sentence; 两三年回去一次 = "goes back once every 2-3 years", and 才 adds the nuance of "only".
I kind of see what you mean here, since once every several years would be considered seldom in most circumstances, I guess -- but I'm still not sure why it's the same in #17, where the numbers are reversed. In #17, rather than once every 2-3 years, it's 2-3 times per year ("他经常一年___回去两三次"). If 才 is the best answer here too, then I think there must be something I'm not getting about the grammar of the sentence that makes 就 obviously wrong, because just from the context of "2-3 times per year," it seems impossible to know if that's surprisingly seldom ("he usually only goes back a few times a year") or surprisingly often ("he usually goes back a few times every year").
I'd almost definitely add the 了 with 就
Aha. I feel like I'm going to have to actually start learning Mandarin properly before I'm ever going to get the hang of 了...
no subject
Date: 2023-02-01 12:36 pm (UTC)Yeah, immediacy is one way of putting it – more generally (and without consulting any actual formal sources) I'd say 就 inherently puts an emphasis on the subsequent bit, which in the context of it coming after time-based words that tends to read as immediacy? 我现在就去。 And this goes for both actual-past and hypothetical situations: 那个花瓶不太稳，看起来一碰就会倒下。/ 刚碰就倒下了。
Other kinds of non-immediacy emphasis would be as in 那就这样吧 (could imply "since we can't have it another way/this is our current best option") 我就要这个 (and no other). Contrast the vibes of 人的年纪越大，越看得开 vs 人的年纪越大，就越看的开 – in my head it feels like the same kind of emphasis going on with the time-就 sentences in the practice. (Canto 就 feels pretty similar from what I've seen so far?)
And oh I hadn't noticed 17 was different haha, but yeah I also don't see anything that would stop both from being admissible answers, just with opposite meanings…
no subject
Date: 2023-02-05 11:20 am (UTC)Got it, that all makes sense. And yeah, as far as I know, 就 in Canto is the same as in Mandarin -- I think I've just been missing some of the nuance of immediacy! At least in certain cases with time-based words, as you say. I did always understand it that way when it came with 一, like in your example "看起来一碰就会倒下." So I probably just need to think of it as having that meaning more of the time, not just when there's actually a 一 in front of it...
no subject
Date: 2023-02-05 09:50 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2023-02-05 10:56 am (UTC)Hah, and meanwhile I remain extremely confused by 了, so I still don't really know what the deal is there. XD
This might not be helpful at all, but to me it seems like there are only two meanings of 才: "only then" and "just now." To me at least, "only then" already implies that something is "later than expected," so I don't see that as a separate meaning. Basically, I think of "[X] 才 [Y]" as "only when [X] then (finally) [Y]." So for instance, you have these listed under separate rules, but they can be translated in almost the same way:
他晚上十二点才睡觉
I think of this as "Only at midnight did he (finally) get to sleep."
老师来了，教室里才开始安静。
I think of this as "Only when the teacher arrived did the class become calm."
A couple more examples from the question set:
在外面工作了， [才] 知道在家好。
Only after you've worked outside will you know it's good to be home.
他很少回国，两三年 [才] 回去一次。
Only once every two or three years does he go back to China.
And I think for the other meaning, "just now," 才 usually does really translate pretty straightforwardly to "just" (or "just now," or "just then" if the context is in the past).
他才上课。
He just (now) went to class.
他来这个地方的时候，[才] 十九岁。
When he came to this place, he was just nineteen.
Bob [才] 来上海半年
Bob just came to Shanghai half a year ago.
Though I have to say I still find it a little confusing that Mandarin uses a single word for both "only then" and "just now," since I'm used to these being separate things!
no subject
Date: 2023-01-29 09:21 pm (UTC)I feel like I have a good enough grip on 就 that I should be able to get most of this right just by using 才 when 就 makes no sense; we'll see if I'm vastly overestimating my understanding, LOL!
no subject
Date: 2023-02-05 09:51 am (UTC)Good luck with it!