Is this correct? Using 得

[undeadrobins]

In my latest class, we were looking at the use of 得. This is something that I spent weeks trying to understand a few months back, but I realised that the teacher wasn't explaining it in a way that the others in the class could understand.

So, as my day job is rewriting stuff into plain English, I decided to give it a go. But I need someone who knows more Chinese than me to check I'm actually correct! This is a pretty simplified explanation, but I just wanted to help them get the basics.

I'd really appreciate any feedback on this.

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Usually when you use an adjective, you're describing a thing (noun), right? The girl is pretty (女孩很漂亮). That's an easy one.

 

But sometimes you want to describe an action (verb). In English, this is the adverb, which sometime end in -ly, but not always. She speaks loudly. He smiled happily. He plays tennis well. 

 

This is what 得 does. It changes the adjective into an adverb. So unlike in English where you might have to learn two different forms of the same word depending on what you want to describe (happy vs happily, or loud vs loudly), in Chinese, it uses the same character, but adds 得 in front of it.

 

With simple single-character verbs, such as 笑 (to smile), you simply add 得 before the adjective word or phrase (remembering to include 很 or other similar linking word, such as 非常, 不). 他笑得很高兴.

 

In cases where the verb has two or more characters, such as 睡觉, 跳舞 or 打篮球, you have to repeat the first character and add 得 before the adjective and the linking word. 他打网球打得很好. It's a little more complicated but it's the exact same idea.

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Does that a) make sense in English and b) actually explain it correctly?

Comments

[yaaurens]

That... makes way more sense than how it was explained on Hello Chinese! (Is it correct? I don't know for sure, but it sounds right from what little I know.)

[presumenothing]

(my brain isn't fully online yet so take the following with a pinch of salt but)

I think this works as a basic standalone explanation of 得 – essentially it's the hot glue between the verb (occasionally adjective) in front and the describey-phrase behind to elaborate on its extent, outcome etc. (I hesitate to actually say "adjective" here because you can also stick on other 补语 phrases that don't really look like English adjectives: 高兴得跳起来、败得落花流水…)

Though I'm also thinking whether this will lead to confusion with 地 as it also performs an apparently-similar function of sticking descriptor and verb/adjective together. This concern is completely unrelated to the correct usages of 的、地、得 being my personal nightmare of old. /sarcasm

General sidenote: in informal writing, people do sometimes just (incorrectly) use 的 in place of 地 or 得 because it reads the same and everyone knows what you mean. So if you see casual internet stuff that doesn't seem to line up with the Correct™️ usages of each, I wouldn't be too bothered about it.

[scytale]

I appreciate the explanations from you and undeadrobins, especially since...

General sidenote: in informal writing, people do sometimes just (incorrectly) use 的 in place of 地 or 得 because it reads the same and everyone knows what you mean.

Pitfalls of my ad hoc approach to grammar: I didn't even realize they were three separate words! I think I've been using 的 incorrectly this whole time. :D

[presumenothing]

it is very much a case of WHY do we need DIFFERENT WORDS for this there's literally NO point besides causing me to lose marks for grammar errors (grrr)

[scytale]

That's not fair! It can also add ambiguity for those of us struggling to read! ;p ("Why are we suddenly talking about the earth? Oh.")

[undeadrobins]

So maybe if I send it to my classmates with the heavy author's note explaining that this is a very simple guide to help them understand the absolute basics in order to do the assignment, but in reality it's a lot more nuanced.

And then I also send them the Chinese grammar wiki link! https://resources.allsetlearning.com/chinese/grammar/Structural_particle_%22de%22

It was never intended as a complete guide to de, de and de (which I still don't understand myself!) but they all looked so confused in class, poor things!

[undeadrobins]

I remember sitting down one weekend with a dozen tabs open, all with pages trying to explain this to me, and spending literal hours trying to understand it.

I still don't. But I get the basics for now and figure that's enough!

[undeadrobins]

Hahaha! Yes, I hate things like that!

I spent ages before class yesterday looking at the transcript for that lesson, and was staring at the word 对不起, trying desperately to figure it out "correct, negative... wake up?"

I *know* it means "sorry". It was one of the first words I learned. But I totally blanked on it, and could only remember that 起 was in 起床, and just went into a spiral!

[grayswandir]

This all sounds right to me based on how I've heard/seen 得 used, and your explanation is very clear! I might nitpick the wording here just a little:

"This is what 得 does. It changes the adjective into an adverb. So unlike in English where you might have to learn two different forms of the same word depending on what you want to describe (happy vs happily, or loud vs loudly), in Chinese, it uses the same character, but adds 得 in front of it."

I can't tell what you mean by "it" in the part I bolded. You could say something like "in Chinese, you use the same character, but add 得 in front of it."

I think your classmates will appreciate your explanation!

[presumenothing]

Yeah as long as they're aware of the terms and conditions (lol) it's definitely a place to start! Better than being completely lost at least.

[grayswandir]

The comment thread here has been fascinating to me, because all three words are pronounced quite differently from each other in Canto, so I've never even considered them to be similar. XD It looks like the use of 地 as an adverb marker is "chiefly Mandarin" (according to Wiktionary), so that probably also explains why I wouldn't have thought of mixing that one up with the others... but to me, 得 and 的 also seem very different from each other. Of course, there's still plenty of grammar I don't know, so maybe they're more similar than I think. But now I'm wondering, is the confusion maybe just because the words sound the same, so they seem interchangeable because people don't hear a difference in speech? Like, in the example above, 他打网球打得很好, would 打的很好 sound the same and therefore not seem weird/wrong?

[presumenothing]

Judging by how searching for "得 用法" essentially yields pages upon pages of 的地得 (and not from sites primarily targeted at Chinese second language (CSL??) teaching/learning, unlike 能/会/可以 the other day) there's definitely something about it that causes confusion even for native speakers, which is also consistent with my experience from school.

I wager that you're right and the same-sound is part of it, since that means it's impossible to learn the differences via listening? 打的很好 reads perfectly comprehensibly even if I know it's wrong if I think about it, and of course it sounds exactly the same either way.

[presumenothing]

Really puts the earth in "what on earth?", innit XD

[grayswandir]

it's impossible to learn the differences via listening

Yeah, I feel like that has to be a factor, at least. Do the words sound the same in Hokkien, too?

[presumenothing]

Nope – double-checked against a Taiwanese article to confirm my instincts are correct and they're completely different. 地 is even omitted in most cases…

[grayswandir]

Aha. So I guess the question is, do they seem interchangeable in both languages, or just in Mandarin?...

[presumenothing]

………given that I think I use them not-incorrectly in Hokkien, which I am (and I cannot stress this enough) an Absolutely Terribad Awful speaker of, my only conclusion is to stand in the rain like a good cdrama protag and once again question why common wisdom insists these are dialects and not separate-but-related languages. Not a new question at all, obviously.

[grayswandir]

...You make a good point. XD