第一百五十七天

[nnozomi]

语法
verb (without object) + 了 + amount of time + 了 again, to indicate an action that has been going on for X duration and is still ongoing
https://resources.allsetlearning.com/chinese/grammar/Expressing_ongoing_duration_with_double_%22le%22
(top half of the page only)

词汇
几, several/how many (pinyin in tags)
https://mandarinbean.com/new-hsk-1-word-list/

Guardian:
咱们几个斗了也有大半年了吧, we've been fighting various fights for over six months now.
和儿子拥抱的感觉如何，你好像等了二十年了, how did it feel to hug your son, you seem to have been waiting twenty years
说什么呢，就几个苹果, what are you saying, it's just a few apples.

Me:
我只看了一个小时了，已经看到了牵牛花长大了。
我喜欢几种音乐。

Comments

[trobadora]

And again I'm not sure why this is a different use of 了 - isn't this just combining both basic uses of 了 (the one that attaches to the verb and the one that attaches to the sentence as a whole) in a sentence with a time frame?

[nnozomi]

isn't this just combining both basic uses of 了 (the one that attaches to the verb and the one that attaches to the sentence as a whole) in a sentence with a time frame?
In my head this one is specifically the equivalent of present perfect progressive tense (I know it's not really a tense, but in my head...), "have been doing X for X time," with the 了 sandwich around the duration. The specific syntax helps me keep 了 finished doing X with 了 still doing X straight...

[trobadora]

It's always fascinating how we analyse these sentences differently! I don't read it as a sandwich myself. I read it as "have done it for x amount of time" (aka the sentence without the final 了) + "am now doing it" (sentence-final 了) = "have been doing it for x amount of time already".

[nnozomi]

I read it as "have done it for x amount of time" (aka the sentence without the final 了) + "am now doing it" (sentence-final 了) = "have been doing it for x amount of time already".
Fascinating, as you say--this almost works for me, except I'll get totally confused if I start thinking of 了 as "am now doing it," so I have to put it a different way to myself...

[grayswandir]

This double 了 thing is new to me, and I'm still trying to figure out how to think about it. o_O I can't see it as a sandwich, but I'm with you on thinking it would be very confusing to view 了 as meaning something is ongoing! To me it almost seems like the second 了 reverses the first one, like the first one tells you the action is completed and then the second one tells you it's... actually not completed? I don't know, this might take some getting used to.

And now I'm also wondering if the Cantonese particle that works like 了 can also mean something is ongoing. :/ It wouldn't get doubled, because it can only come at the end of a sentence, but it could come at the end of a sentence where the verb has a different completed-aspect marker attached to it. I may need to find someone I can ask about this!

[nnozomi]

To me it almost seems like the second 了 reverses the first one, like the first one tells you the action is completed and then the second one tells you it's... actually not completed?
ack, yeah, that could also work! Ongoing time reverberating back and forth between the two 了s...

Also keep us posted on what you learn about the Cantonese equivalent!

[trobadora]

I'm with you on thinking it would be very confusing to view 了 as meaning something is ongoing!

But isn't that's what change of state 了 can do? It's "wasn't X before, is X now" as in 下雨了 "it's raining (now)".

[grayswandir]

Hmm. My first thought was that they seem really different to me, if not almost opposite, in that change of state means something has changed (it wasn't raining, but now it is), whereas an ongoing action is one that hasn't changed (it's been raining, and it's still raining).

But maybe I can try to think of the second 了 as change of state in the sense of "It's now (become) having-been-raining-for-two-hours (and is still in that state)." It feels a little complicated to me, but it might work.

At any rate, the fact that 了 can mean you finished verbing, or you started verbing, or you were already verbing and haven't stopped... oy. XD

[trobadora]

"It's now (become) having-been-raining-for-two-hours (and is still in that state)."

Yes, that's how I read it! Sorry, I explained that badly.

At any rate, the fact that 了 can mean you finished verbing, or you started verbing, or you were already verbing and haven't stopped... oy. XD

Too, too true!

[nnozomi]

At any rate, the fact that 了 can mean you finished verbing, or you started verbing, or you were already verbing and haven't stopped... oy.
oy indeed, or rather 哎哟 as the case may be...I wonder if this is one of those things (like a/the in English?) where the rules can only take you so far and after a while you just have to develop a feel for it?

[grayswandir]

On a side note, while browsing around the Grammar Wiki looking for more info on 了, I came across this additional description of the double-了 construction, which includes another meaning:

If there is another 了 placed at the end of the sentence, it can add a stronger emphasis that the action was already completed, in the same way we might say we "did finish the work" or "already finished the work" instead of just saying we "finished the work."

我 做 了 作业 了 ，你 要 检查 吗 ？
I already finished my homework. Do you want to check it?

他 问 了 经理 了 ，经理 说 行 。
He already asked the manager, and the manager said yes.

So in this case the action is emphatically not ongoing! :/

The page also has this description of what seems to be the double-了 usage we're already talking about, but with slightly different implications?

If another 了 is added at the end of the sentence, implies that the number in front of the object is already a big number, and that this number could continue to grow.

他们 生 了 四 个 孩子 了 。
They've had four children already.

你 吃 了 五 个 包子 了 。
You've eaten five baozi already.

So, not exactly expressing that the action is ongoing, but sort of the possibility that it might continue?

[trobadora]

So in this case the action is emphatically not ongoing! :/

I think that may be just the difference in the verb, whether it describes an ongoing thing (raining, waiting, searching) or a single thing (asking, finishing, etc.)? Idk.

So, not exactly expressing that the action is ongoing, but sort of the possibility that it might continue?

Oooh. That makes sense, I guess! Still, too many nuances. *tears hair*

[nnozomi]

I think that may be just the difference in the verb, whether it describes an ongoing thing (raining, waiting, searching) or a single thing (asking, finishing, etc.)?
That's another thing to think of--I feel like this might explain a lot but I haven't figured it out yet?

Still, too many nuances. *tears hair*
NO KIDDING, sigh.

[grayswandir]

I feel like this might explain a lot but I haven't figured it out yet?

Looking back at the Wiki page again, I think the difference is actually just the mention of duration. "我做了作业了" means "I already finished my homework," but I presumably if you added a duration like "我做作业做了一个小时了," it would mean that you've been doing your homework for an hour. I'm not sure if you can use the same structure with a more finite action like 問 -- it might mean "I've been asking for an hour"?

I do see how the 了 is kind of "already" in both cases, with one meaning you've already done the verb, and the other meaning you've already done the verb for a certain amount of time. But I agree with you, I think this may be one of those things I just need to hear enough in context to get used to it. (I'm glad for the grammar info, though, because I don't think I would have figured out on my own that duration + 了 means the action is ongoing!)

[trobadora]

Oh, yeah, good point about the mention of duration, that makes sense!

[nnozomi]

whether it describes an ongoing thing (raining, waiting, searching) or a single thing (asking, finishing, etc.)
if you added a duration like "我做作业做了一个小时了," it would mean that you've been doing your homework for an hour. I'm not sure if you can use the same structure with a more finite action like 問 -- it might mean "I've been asking for an hour"?
I'm pretty sure I can think of some contexts where 我问了一个小时了 would apply lol (see: on hold on the phone, forgetful managers/professors, etc.). But these various potential explanations are gradually coming together in my mind for a little better understanding (not that I can put it into words but I feel like I'll know where to start thinking the next time I see one of these).
(As always, your on-point grammar research and thoughts VERY helpful)

[elenothar]

This one feels weirdly counterintuitive to me, probably because the first 了 meaning I learned was the 'completed action' one, and this is about ongoing actions (sigh).

[nnozomi]

This one feels weirdly counterintuitive to me, probably because the first 了 meaning I learned was the 'completed action' one, and this is about ongoing actions (sigh).
Too true. This is why I do end up trying to keep the various 了s separate in my head. (I suspect a lot of it eventually comes down to instinct/familiarity which I don't have and may never, sigh...)