第二年第二百零三天

[nnozomi]

语法
(包括) + X + 在内, "including X"
https://resources.allsetlearning.com/chinese/grammar/Expressing_%22including%22_with_%22zainei%22

词汇
脸, face (pinyin in tags). Refers (I think) both literally to the face on the front of your head and to "losing face" etc.
https://mandarinbean.com/new-hsk-2-word-list/

Guardian:
[no 在内]
自从你当年离我而去，我就戴上了这个面具，就为了不想看到这张和你一模一样的脸, ever since you went off and left me I have worn this mask, because I don't want to see this face identical to yours.
一个唱红脸，一个唱白脸, good cop bad cop
你的脸上有灰，我帮你吹一吹, there's dust on your face, I was just blowing it off for you.

Me:
包括到车站走路的时间，去那里要花一个半小时。
如果我在他们面前哭起来的话，太丢脸了吧。

Comments

[grayswandir]

脸, face (pinyin in tags). Refers (I think) both literally to the face on the front of your head and to "losing face" etc.

Oh, actually, I was just wondering about something related to this. I recently read that the English term "to give (someone) face" is a calque from Cantonese 畀面, which surprised me because I assumed this idea was common throughout China and wasn't just a Cantonese expression (although obviously the Mandarin would not be 畀面 but I assume something with 脸). Does anybody know if there's a Mandarin phrase for giving face to someone, or does Mandarin not have an equivalent for that expression?

[nnozomi]

the English term "to give (someone) face" is a calque from Cantonese 畀面
Interesting! Maybe Cantonese was the original point of contact with English for this one? A quick check suggests that the Mandarin is likely to be 给脸 in various variations, but I hope someone more knowledgeable will speak up (面 vs 脸 vs 颜...????)
(In Japanese the most common term for the non-physical face concept is 面子, pronounced as a direct Chinese loanword (mentsu) rather than using any of the normal Japanese readings. 脸 doesn't exist as far as I know, and 颜 just refers to the physical face...)

[cathyw]

Google Translate, for all that Google Translate is worth, also suggests that 'face' in the sense of reputation is 面子 (miàn zì). (Are there any uses of 'face' in this sense in Guardian? I can see someone talking about Yunlan having a thick face.) I have also seen 面 used instead of 边 to talk about being on the X side of something? I suspect there was some kind of contextual difference I didn't pick up though.

(also I will not inquire too deeply about how 面 ended up meaning both 'face' and 'noodle'.)

Edit: AHA, I have the subtitle files for Word of Honor and I found a 'reputation' usage of 'face', and it was 面子 in Mandarin. Conveniently the previous line included a usage of 脸 meaning the same person's actual visage. :)

[sakana17]

There's a great Wiktionary entry for 面. It seems like 面 for "noodles" is a simplified form of 麵, a character formed by combining 麥 (the character for "wheat") + phonetic 面. The Wiktionary labels the figurative 面 for "dignity, reputation, face" as "(Cantonese, Singapore, and Penang Hokkien)," for what it's worth.

There's also an entry for 脸 but it doesn't give a compound or example for "give someone face." The entry says that the traditional form of 脸 exists in Japanese as an "uncommon Hyōgai kanji," whatever that is.

[grayswandir]

脸 doesn't exist as far as I know, and 颜 just refers to the physical face...

Oh, I didn't even think about that there was a third option! Interesting how all three languages use different words. I know 颜 can mean face, but I mostly just think of it as "color" since I don't hear it much outside of 顏色. Meanwhile Cantonese just uses 面 by itself for both literal and figurative "face." And I guess 脸 is pretty much just Mandarin!

I hadn't seen 给脸 before. It does seem like it should be the obvious literal equivalent to both the Cantonese and the English, but Pleco gives me a definition for it that seems to be more like "allow someone to save face" than "show respect," so I wonder if it's slightly different or if that entry is just worded oddly... (it says "do a favor; save s.b.'s face").

ETA: I just tried looking up Cantonese 畀面 on Baidu, and it says 意思是给面, so I guess 给面 is a possibility? Though then I tried to look up 給面 on Pleco, and Pleco only has it as 给面子. XD Maybe they're all possible depending on region or something!

[grayswandir]

AHA, I have the subtitle files for Word of Honor and I found a 'reputation' usage of 'face', and it was 面子 in Mandarin. Conveniently the previous line included a usage of 脸 meaning the same person's actual visage. :)

Ah, good to know! Thanks for checking!

(also I will not inquire too deeply about how 面 ended up meaning both 'face' and 'noodle'.)

Hah. XD sakana17 explained it below -- looks like it's one of those cases where a more complicated traditional character (麵 for "noodles") got simplified to match the less complicated one (面 for "face") because they're pronounced the same. And presumably the reason 麵 had 面 in it to begin with was as a pronunciation marker, so when they simplified it they just... kept the pronunciation part and got rid of the "wheat" part. XD

[grayswandir]

The Wiktionary labels the figurative 面 for "dignity, reputation, face" as "(Cantonese, Singapore, and Penang Hokkien),"

Huh! Given what cathyw said above, I wonder if they just mean 面 by itself, as opposed to 面子? Kind of confusing if so, since the way the entry is phrased seems to imply that 面 just doesn't have that meaning in Mandarin.

[cathyw]

...I did not need to know Wiktionary existed and held such wonders; I can feel a black hole forming under my time...

Looking at the table of dialectical synonyms, that's exactly it - 面 by itself is only used in those three dialects, and all the other dialects listed use compounds. A lot of them are 面皮 literally meaning "the skin on your cheeks", some are 面子, and then they list a half dozen for standard Mandarin (including 脸面, ha! [insert 'why not both.gif' here]) - so I'm going to guess the figurative usage derives from the literal usage of 面 to mean a surface or the 'face' of an object (e.g. the face of a die or a cliff), and they talk about the 'thickness' of the protective 'surface/skin' your reputation provides you.

The Wiktionary page on 脸面 offers another half dozen synonyms. I suppose it's not surprising that an important social concept has a lot of synonyms and slang terms?

(also this seems similar to the English usage where someone quick to take offense is described as 'thin-skinned' and I *do not* have time to go looking up the origins of that phrase...)

[grayswandir]

Oh, cool, I didn't even realize there was a separate chart there for synonyms meaning "reputation" separate from the chart for physical "face" synonyms. That's very helpful. (Also I just learned from the next chart down that 面 is a classifier for flags in Mandarin, which I didn't know...)

including 脸面, ha!

I had to laugh about that as well. XD And there's also 顏面!

also this seems similar to the English usage where someone quick to take offense is described as 'thin-skinned' and I *do not* have time to go looking up the origins of that phrase...

Hah, yes, that's how I've always sort of thought of 面皮, which I didn't realize was dialectical until just now looking at that chart. In Cantonese I've only heard it in the phrase 厚面皮, literally "thick-skinned," for someone who has little or no sense of shame. So yeah, a little bit like the opposite of thin-skinned. It looks like the Mandarin equivalent is 臉皮 (and 厚臉皮 for thick-skinned/shameless), which I've never heard before but probably should have guessed!

[cathyw]

a definition for it that seems to be more like "allow someone to save face" than "show respect,"

that seems to fit with how I've seen the phrase "give me some face" used in translated novels and dramas. like "I know I am being shameless here but please don't call me on it?"

"show respect" would seem to go with a completely different concept of respect/dignity/social standing that I'm sure has its own very rich vocabulary that we non-native-speakers will never fully grasp the nuances of.

[grayswandir]

Huh, now that you put it that way, I actually wonder if those are the same meaning after all. I was thinking maybe 给脸 and 给面/给面子 were different usages, but maybe "showing respect" in this sense is actually the same as "doing a favor" or "letting someone save face."

One example I'm thinking of is from a series where the host of a party/event says he's glad everyone he invited is giving him face by attending the event. My original thought was that the guests are showing respect by coming to his event, but you could also say they're "doing him a favor" by doing him the honor of accepting the invitation. And I think the description you gave could also fit with that, even though obviously inviting people to an event isn't "shameless" or anything. It's still a request (and thus maybe slightly presumptuous) that opens up the possibility of rejection and embarrassment, so choosing to attend the event could be seen as "letting the host save face" rather than embarrassing him by not coming.

The more I think about this, the more I feel like it's easier to understand how it works in context than to put a definition to it. XD

[nnozomi]

Are there any uses of 'face' in this sense in Guardian?
Da Qing, attempting to obtain information from a bunch of distracted kittens, says 大家都是猫，给个面子行不行, we're all cats, can you give me some face or what?
With 脸, we also have 我没脸再见到哥哥, I don't have the face to see my brother again, and 谁叫我不要脸? which I think is something like "who says I act like I don't have self-respect."

[nnozomi]

Maybe they're all possible depending on region or something!
A fantastic complex of region, dialect, historical effects...

[nnozomi]

The entry says that the traditional form of 脸 exists in Japanese as an "uncommon Hyōgai kanji," whatever that is.
Not included in any of the standard usage lists, basically. Thanks for the Wiktionary link--it looks like the form of 脸 used in Japanese is actually used to mean "eyelid," there's a weird meaning shift if you like.

[nnozomi]

In Cantonese I've only heard it in the phrase 厚面皮, literally "thick-skinned," for someone who has little or no sense of shame.
Oh yeah, and you reminded me that Japanese (and Chinese, I believe) says 厚颜无耻, thick face and no shame, for someone who behaves that way. Using 颜 instead of 脸 or 面, oh dear oh dear.

[grayswandir]

Interesting, so it does seem like 面子 and 脸 can be pretty much the same! And now there's 给个面子 for me to add to my list. XD

谁叫我不要脸

From what I've seen, I'm pretty sure 谁叫 is usually a rhetorical question meaning "who told [you] to..." and implying that nobody told you to do it -- you did it of your own free will, and thus the consequences are your own fault. I think 谁叫我不要脸 would be like, "Who told me to act so shameless?" as a self-rebuke (like "why did I go and act so shameless?").

[nnozomi]

Good to know about 谁叫. The subtitles here say something like "because I am shameless, too," which I'm not sure about...