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guardian_learning还是, "or" in questions"
https://resources.allsetlearning.com/chinese/grammar/Offering_choices_with_%22haishi%22
还是 also has a bunch of different usages, doesn't everything, but this one is just "X or Y" as used in questions. (I think.)
Guardian:
普通的什么呀？普通的绝世高手，还是普通的地星领袖啊？(Zhao Yunlan getting on Shen Wei's case for his reflexive "I'm just an ordinary..." "An ordinary what? An ordinary superstar, or an ordinary leader of Dixing?")
说吧，你是为了钱还是为了名？(Let's hear it, are you out for money or for fame?)
那请问你是中医还是西医吗？ (May I ask, do you practice Chinese or Western medicine?)
My practice:
你更喜欢红色的还是白色的？
你要喝热茶还是冷茶？现在是冬天吧，我当然喝热茶。
真的吴邪到底是谁啊？你还是他？
https://resources.allsetlearning.com/chinese/grammar/Offering_choices_with_%22haishi%22
还是 also has a bunch of different usages, doesn't everything, but this one is just "X or Y" as used in questions. (I think.)
Guardian:
普通的什么呀？普通的绝世高手，还是普通的地星领袖啊？(Zhao Yunlan getting on Shen Wei's case for his reflexive "I'm just an ordinary..." "An ordinary what? An ordinary superstar, or an ordinary leader of Dixing?")
说吧，你是为了钱还是为了名？(Let's hear it, are you out for money or for fame?)
那请问你是中医还是西医吗？ (May I ask, do you practice Chinese or Western medicine?)
My practice:
你更喜欢红色的还是白色的？
你要喝热茶还是冷茶？现在是冬天吧，我当然喝热茶。
真的吴邪到底是谁啊？你还是他？
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Date: 2022-02-19 11:55 pm (UTC)你认识的我是个什么样的人，好人还是坏人？
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Date: 2022-02-20 12:11 am (UTC)I only know this one so far, and now I'm very D: about Yet Another Thing With Too Many Usages.
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Date: 2022-02-20 08:00 pm (UTC)[sob]
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Date: 2022-02-21 12:58 am (UTC)ooh, perfect example and such a loaded question...
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Date: 2022-02-21 12:59 am (UTC)I KNOW. a) every phrase/word has multiple possible meanings, b) there are multiple possible ways to express every meaning. Are there any languages where the rate of vocabulary/phrase to meaning is exactly one to one? Because I want to learn one. (I mean, Chinese is making me tear my hair but it's fun! But still.)
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Date: 2022-02-21 01:01 am (UTC)[sob]
I'm going to quote my response to laireshi above with the exact same issue, oh dear: a) every phrase/word has multiple possible meanings, b) there are multiple possible ways to express every meaning. Are there any languages where the rate of vocabulary/phrase to meaning is exactly one to one? Because I want to learn one.
(It's fun! We're doing it for fun, and it is fun! but aargh.)
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Date: 2022-02-21 04:28 pm (UTC)…I have to admit, I was drawing a ??? blank on what could possibly be ambiguous about this sense of 还是, but of course. 或者 had to exist. Right.
or at least I'm assuming that's the cause of doubt hereAnyway yes 还是 is a pretty straightforward "or"; very often exclusive-or, if you want to be specific, and is applicable even in rhetorical questions as demonstrated by ZYL. (I say "very often" because ZYL's examples also disprove it being an absolute rule, lmao, but I think it's safe to assume a pick-1-of-2 situation if you're actually asking someone to answer and not Being Dramatic.)
This contrasts with the use of 或者 mentioned in the link, which is… kinda like marking it "and/or plus et cetera"? A choice may have to be made later (and it might be exclusive-or or both/neither/whatever) but right now it's
quantuma Lump of Possibility. To adapt an example: 无论是中医或者西医，只要能治好赵云澜的眼睛…… /trailing off while staring pensively into the distanceno subject
Date: 2022-02-21 10:43 pm (UTC)Probably not, but also, probably there aren't any languages that have a bigger meaning:phrase ratio than Chinese? *cries*
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Date: 2022-02-22 06:49 pm (UTC)Hmm. I'm trying to think whether this is just native speaker bias, but I think German comes closer than any other language I've attempted so far. The vocabulary is quite straightforward, I feel (the grammar a little less so). I wonder if, say, an agglutinating language would be less variable, given that the word itself gets modified so much...
Fun with a generous side helping of hair pulling XD
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Date: 2022-02-23 01:15 am (UTC)That's a good point. (I daydream about an extended stay in Berlin one of these years, so if that ever happens I'll get seriously into German and find out!)
Even in agglutinative Japanese, though, there are weird things like 食べられる, which could mean "be able to eat" or "be eaten" equally. Naturally it is usually quite clear from context, but still!
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Date: 2022-02-23 01:20 am (UTC)无论是中医或者西医，只要能治好赵云澜的眼睛……
very helpful example, thanks! My understanding at the moment is 还是 for questions and 或者 for statements, but obviously as you point out it's never quite that simple...
或者 mentioned in the link, which is… kinda like marking it "and/or plus et cetera"
okay, like や in Japanese, I can do that.
(Really appreciate your patient explanations here and elsewhere, by the way; I hope it's not being a nuisance for you.)
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Date: 2022-02-23 11:02 am (UTC)Existential facepalm moment. I have to offer a correction at myself because I figured out what was niggling at me with that example I gave… forgot 无论〜还是〜 (and its synonymous friend 不管〜还是〜) is basically a set phrase. So even though this feels like a 或者-for-statements instance, the more Proper And Correct use would be 无论是中医还是西医. The other exception would be statements that imply some uncertainty on the part of the speaker/subject – those still take 还是, e.g. 我不知道他今天去还是明天去. As opposed, I guess, to something like 你可以明天或着后天去.
The above aside (as if two exceptions isn't already a significant deviation LOL someone make this language make sense) "还是 = questions, 或者 = statements" works! And I am now recalling why I did not enjoy taking tests for this language 哈哈哈哈 there's all this stuff that doesn't necessarily sound wrong colloquially but will get you marked down anyway.
还是 "better do x" if the wiki is leading me correctly
Yep, 还是〜吧 is another common use – to me it feels similar to 〜方がいい, and I'd treat it as completely separate from the "or" meaning. Which is structurally different anyway since it's always sandwiched between two options.
(And I don't mind at all, it's also fun for me to see everyone here being so enthusiastic
ally frustratedwith learning; really my biggest concern is accidentally misleading anyone because my own knowledge is not standard nor very formalised LOL. Amazing how many grammar transgressions you can get away with colloquially XD and maybe it'll kick my brain to getting back into Japanese learning… /pointed stare of the N2 books I haven't touched since acquiring them)no subject
Date: 2022-02-23 02:33 pm (UTC)..... maybe the conclusion is just always going to be 'languages are fundamentally weird, i.e. the many influences and forces of development (and individual usages) just make it impossible for a language to be entirely rational'. Then again, what does rational even mean in this context....
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Date: 2022-02-24 01:44 am (UTC)I don't think of this as an exception to the 还是-in-questions rule, because it's still an embedded question in the larger sentence, like "I don't know [is he going today or tomorrow?]." I'll try to commit to memory that 无论 works the same way. (another of those 麻烦 Japanese overlaps where it's not the same thing but not quite totally different--無論 in Japanese is just もちろん or 当然...).
And I don't mind at all, it's also fun for me to see everyone here being so enthusiastic
ally frustratedwith learning;Once again, very much appreciated! （如果对日语我能帮你个忙，你什么时候都说，though I'm not a native speaker I am a daily user with native speakers on tap).
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Date: 2022-02-24 01:49 am (UTC)Will keep this in mind, thanks! I love the language resources we have (are) around here. (Any long-term stay in Berlin would be far in the future for many obvious reasons, but it's one of the few cities I've visited and just thought, wow, I want to live here.
'languages are fundamentally weird, i.e. the many influences and forces of development (and individual usages) just make it impossible for a language to be entirely rational'. Then again, what does rational even mean in this context....
Entirely unrelated to the main point, but I went to look up some Esperanto stuff based on this (only "rational" within Zamenhof's European, male perspective of course) and found some delightful examples of the words coined by children who are native Esperanto speakers: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Native_Esperanto_speakers#Word_derivation . Every language should have a word for "no longer shaped like a sandwich." (不三明治了？）
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Date: 2022-02-24 04:33 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2022-02-24 06:06 pm (UTC)Computer languages maybe?
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Date: 2022-02-24 06:07 pm (UTC)Huh, really? I'm German too, but German doesn't feel different from English to me on that front ...
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Date: 2022-02-24 06:10 pm (UTC)Oh, that is amazing! I love word formation. Thank you for linking that!
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Date: 2022-02-24 06:31 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2022-02-24 06:42 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2022-02-24 11:54 pm (UTC)De-sandwich-ification! ;)
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Date: 2022-02-24 11:55 pm (UTC)(As you say elsewhere, computer languages might be the only rational one-to-one examples around, but equally they're that much less fun to learn...)
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Date: 2022-02-25 12:05 am (UTC)