第十九天

[nnozomi]

怎么，how to do something
https://resources.allsetlearning.com/chinese/grammar/How_to_do_something_with_%22zenme%22

I really like this word for some reason. 怎么 can also mean "why," and it comes into one million useful colloquial expressions (怎么了，怎么办，怎么样，怎么回事，怎么这么～ and so on), but we can stick to "how" for the sake of not doing everything at once...

Guardian:
我问你啊，在小说最后的最后，那个怪物是怎么死的？(Lemme ask, at the very end of the novel, how did the monster die?)
你怎么知道我不会呢？（How do you know I can't [erase your memories]? (Unfair to quote this line again, but the look on his face.))

My practice:
我不知道怎么烤面包，对我来说比做饭更难。
用中文怎么说sleepy?
你是怎么来的，今天地铁是不是不运作？

Comments

[presumenothing]

If you're going for "I thought the trains were down today?" in that third one then I'd go with something like 地铁不是没开吗？

我才刚醒，怎么还那么困呢？那再睡多一会儿吧 (the obvious solution)

沈教授能学会他所见到的异能，怎么就偏偏不会用手机呢…

怎么说呢，我才刚发现上面两个造句都是why而不是how的意思…… 离题了。（尴尬）

One million expressions is definitely correct.

[nnozomi]

If you're going for "I thought the trains were down today?" in that third one then I'd go with something like 地铁不是没开吗？
谢谢！ 没开, okay. (For some reason I love all the 是不是，有没有 type constructions and tend to shove them in where they don't belong...).

那再睡多一会儿吧
总是好想法呢。

沈教授能学会他所见到的异能，怎么就偏偏不会用手机呢…
可能他化黑袍使的时候，暂时被带异次元了让手机坏了？ (sorry, terrible Chinese)

我才刚发现上面两个造句都是why而不是how的意思…… 离题了。（尴尬）
没关系，都是练习吧！

[presumenothing]

For some reason I love all the 是不是，有没有 type constructions

Same tbh! In this case it'd also fit in a slightly different context (你怎么迟到了？地铁是不是没开啊？ ……with the caveat that 开 is obviously a very-colloquial word choice here and the proper one would probably be 运作 as you used)

And now I'm laughing at all the phones who have gotten isekai'd because of Shen Wei turning Envoy, RIP technology.

[nnozomi]

In this case it'd also fit in a slightly different context (你怎么迟到了？地铁是不是没开啊？ ……with the caveat that 开 is obviously a very-colloquial word choice here and the proper one would probably be 运作 as you used)
谢谢！ That makes it clearer to me, more like 是不是 for "is...?" and 不是吗 for "isn't...?". Good to know the context re 开 vs 运作 as well (images of someone turning the subway on and off with a big switch...).

And now I'm laughing at all the phones who have gotten isekai'd because of Shen Wei turning Envoy, RIP technology.
lolol, also it's not like he can explain the problem to his students...

[presumenothing]

more like 是不是 for "is...?" and 不是吗 for "isn't...?"

Yup pretty much! 是不是 is a neutral question (the asker doesn't know one way or another) whereas 不是吗 is… loaded?? is the word probably. Sorta like なかったっけ in that you're not really asking for information.

(images of someone turning the subway on and off with a big switch...)

XD

[trobadora]

SHL: 一个天窗之主，一个恶鬼头子。 这两个魔星怎么会碰到一起了呢？

[nnozomi]

大概是缘分的！

[trobadora]

温客行说， “我不是跟着你吗？ 你不是说有缘江湖再见。 我呢，不想坐等缘分天赐。 那自然要主动一些了。“

;)

[nnozomi]

我呢，不想坐等缘分天赐。 <3
(you were not kidding about the excellent script, wow)

[trobadora]

It's even more impressive for a) the entire script being written by a single person, and b) that script being her first Chinese script!

Here's an interview with the scriptwriter: part 1, part 2.

[nnozomi]

Here's an interview with the scriptwriter: part 1, part 2.
Thank you! That's a good read for general writing thoughts as well as 山河令-related.

[grayswandir]

Hmm, this post has made me realize I don't really understand the difference between 怎么 and 怎么样. I know you have to use 怎么样 if you're asking "how" something is, in the sense of "what is it like?" (how's your health, how's the weather), and it seems like this is the usage dictionaries and grammar guides emphasize... but I think you can also use it for asking how to do things?

用中文怎么说sleepy?
用中文怎么样说sleepy?

Are these both possible? I have the impression that they are, but if so, I'm not sure if there's a difference between them, or in what cases you can only use 怎么 and never 怎么样. :/

[presumenothing]

Quick answer cause I'm out but I'd only use 怎么 or less formally 怎样 for that, 怎么样说 sounds unnecessarily long/awkward?

[grayswandir]

Ah. So it sounds like I should probably assume it's best to use just 怎么 if the question is about how to do something, vs. 怎么样 for "how is it"/"what is it like," even if in some cases both might technically be possible.

你想我怎么叫你？
怎么去医院？

or less formally 怎样

Heh, and meanwhile in song lyrics I feel like more than half the time it's 如何...

[presumenothing]

This list of use cases is pretty thorough – English explanations also provided in the subsequent answer! This dictionary entry has more elaborate example sentences too (although the actual definitions aren't… super enlightening…)

[grayswandir]

Thank you for the link! That's very helpful, and I'm also glad to see that maybe I'm less confused than I thought I was. The only place where I would have thought you could use both was in the first example ("1.问方式方法"), which apparently is the only case where you can use both (but it sounds like 怎么样 would usually be shortened to 怎样). I wouldn't have added 样 for any of the other uses! Though this one was new to me:

7.引申用法
不怎么＝不太
eg.今天不怎么热。他不怎么说汉语。
不怎么样＝不太好
eg.他这个人不怎么样。他汉语说得不怎么样。

I would have expected 不什么, but it looks like that would be wrong!

(Agh, I should really go back to Italki. I used to use that site all the time. Then a few months ago I made the mistake of offering to help someone who was studying English for the GRE, and they started sending me dozens of GRE study questions multiple times a day, and now I'm scared to log back in there. :/ )

[presumenothing]

I would have expected 不什么

…and now it's my turn to ask if that would be how it is in Canto. Because I just realised the equivalent Hokkien expression definitely uses 什么 and oh my 天 怎么这样呢

[grayswandir]

Okay, so, originally I said yes, because for some reason I was mixing up words and thinking 什么 was 那么. *facepalm* So, uh, actually no. The Canto word they'd use in this case is 咁, which is equivalent to 那么 (not 怎么 OR 什么). 今天不怎么热 would be 今日冇咁熱, and 冇咁 would be literally 没有那么 in Mandarin, I believe.

(I have no idea why I was mixing up those up. :| In Canto 什么 is 乜嘢 (or just 咩), totally different, and you wouldn't use either of those for 不怎么/不太... I think 什么 and 怎么 confuse me a bit because they sound kind of similar to each other, and Canto doesn't use either one, so I've probably never differentiated them properly...)

oh my 天 怎么这样呢

Yeah, I'd been kind of hoping my main difficulty with Mandarin would just be learning new pronunciations for everything, but I guess not!

[presumenothing]

Wait til you hear about the time I failed to realise for like more than half my life that 味噌/miso and 味精/MSG were in fact not at all the same words. Somehow I managed to misfile them in my brain without ever questioning it, go figure.

I totally feel you on those problems though – the way each language uses/distinguishes concepts in sliiiightly different ways is just… why is everything three inches to the left. /staring contest at my N2 grammar book

[nnozomi]

Thank you for all the info in this thread! I'm not up to grasping it all yet but it's super helpful.

the way each language uses/distinguishes concepts in sliiiightly different ways is just… why is everything three inches to the left.
TELL ME ABOUT IT, 你说得对呀。That would be, among many other things, why I can't use 要 right to save my life...

[nnozomi]

Thank you for raising all these questions and answers! So interesting, even though my brain only has the background to process about 35% of it at this point. (I tend to think 怎么+ something else and 怎么样 standing alone, like 你新的工作怎么样？, which based on the above isn't exactly right but sort of gets me through at this point.)

also wow, who ever decided that Cantonese and Mandarin should be called the same language...

[grayswandir]

I tend to think 怎么+ something else and 怎么样 standing alone, like 你新的工作怎么样？

Yeah, I think I was overcomplicating things. It does sound like it's probably best to just stick to using 怎么样 in the kinds of cases you mentioned.

who ever decided that Cantonese and Mandarin should be called the same language

It's weird, like -- I do feel like they're different languages, but on the other hand, you technically can use completely Mandarin grammar and vocabulary in Cantonese and be understood, and things like song lyrics and signs / posters / menus / magazines / anything written will use fully Mandarin grammar and vocabulary. And also... granted, a LOT of super basic words are different in spoken Cantonese (no 不，没，他，们，在，是，能，谁，吃，喝，站...), but I feel like most of the vocabulary that isn't super basic seems to be the same, or very similar? So there's a lot of overlap, but just, the parts that don't overlap are all the most frequently-used parts of the language. XD

(Which, incidentally, means I'm glad you're starting with some basic stuff here!)

[nnozomi]

a LOT of super basic words are different in spoken Cantonese (no 不，没，他，们，在，是，能，谁，吃，喝，站...), but I feel like most of the vocabulary that isn't super basic seems to be the same, or very similar? So there's a lot of overlap, but just, the parts that don't overlap are all the most frequently-used parts of the language. XD
All news to me and my complete Cantonese ignorance, that's really interesting! Different from Japanese dialects where the most different thing tends to be how verbs are conjugated, grammatical particles etc., rather than basic nouns/verb stems...

[grayswandir]

I just realised the equivalent Hokkien expression definitely uses 什么

Can I ask how Hokkien does this, actually? I'm curious now...

[presumenothing]

Fairly similar to the Mandarin examples, I think, just with the equivalent of "没什么"+adjective instead? And also standalone, like (and I'm pretty sure this has happened verbatim) if I'd gone to check out a new shop and someone asked me how it was afterwards and insisted I answer in Hokkien for some unfathomable reason, I'd go "没什么" the same way you could say 不怎么样, 3/10 not impressed would not visit again.

[grayswandir]

Ah, got it, 谢谢. :) I partly wondered because I realized there actually is a Canto phrase that's constructed exactly like 没什么, but I'm... fairly sure it's only used with nouns? (As in "not much money," "not much difference," etc.) So not the same as 怎么, though I think by itself it can work the same as your 不怎么样 3/10 shop review.

"Why is everything three inches to the left?" indeed!

[presumenothing]

Oh wait I've got good news on that actually (for once) because 没什么[noun] is totally a valid Mandarin construction. 至少在这方面上没什么差别

[trobadora]

Speaking of song lyrics, I can't believe I forgot to post these last night:

怎么去拥有一道彩虹
怎么去拥抱一夏天的风 ...

(This whole conversation is super interesting!)

[nnozomi]

I had to go back and listen to the Bai Yu version you linked me to a while back, I couldn't resist...