Novel practice! 的地得de~
Feb. 5th, 2022 03:40 pm![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
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guardian_learning(If you heard those "de"s to the tune of Symphony No. 5 then yes that is 100% correct.)
Anyway! Following the sidetrack into 的、地、得 the other day I thought it might be fun (……to me, at least) to shake down the Guardian novel in a dark alley and see how many use cases fall out. Somehow that turned into this?
So: a fill-in-the-blanks exercise plus examples-by-use-case list! Courtesy of 镇魂 chapter 38 (aka midway through the Wang Zheng road trip arc, which I'm reading from here since it's still locked on JJWXC) and a random number generator.
有兴趣的话就来试试看吧！加油！ (probably-unhelpful hint: 的 will be the correct answer in most cases anyway.)
Some short phrases for starters…
斩魂使（的）脸依然云山雾绕看不见 […]
赵云澜顿了一下，缓缓（地）说：“死亡面前。”
赵云澜用力揉了揉眉心，哑声说：“还好，就是臭丫头这药下（得）没轻没重的，我头晕了一天了。”
Mixing things up!
汪徵（的）眼泪大滴大滴（地）落下来，落到地上，旋即化成了一缕烟，消失在了空气中，而她（的）身影也越变越单薄 […]
被压抑了千年（的）民族，第一口自由（的）空气，几乎要呛（得）他流下泪来。
赵云澜全当他是默认，飞快（地）点着了一根，跟个大烟鬼似（的）深吸了两口 […]
斩魂使低低（地）应了一声，赵云澜站了起来，把烟头捻灭在雪地上，好像又活过来了，接着，他从兜里摸出一张皱巴巴（的）符咒，捏成了一个小球，塞进嘴里吃了 […]
周遭忽如有人影闪现，赵云澜在烈风中艰难（地）睁着眼睛，看见好像海市蜃楼（的）幻影，在空中一闪而过。
他们惊人（地）达成了一致（的）意见——杀了她，砍下她的头。心里就算有千万盏明灯，也会给浇灭（得）一丝灰烬也不剩。
赵云澜一动不动（地）站在原地，山河锥乌黑（的）倒影映入他的眼睛，朔风刮（得）他眼眶有些泛红 […]
赵云澜支起一条长腿，双手搭在膝盖上，坐（得）松松垮垮，没型没款，嘴里（的）话却像刀子，一句比一句更戳人（的）心 […]
汪徵不回答, 直直（地）盯着地面，她这样望向同一个方向（的）时候, 总像是在发呆, 过了好一会，才轻轻（地）说：“ […] 我自然, 自然是不肯（的）。”
And finally a long one (possibly my favourite description from this chapter!)
汪徵和斩魂使一同转向他，赵云澜（的）下唇还沾着一点殷红（的）血迹，脸色格外苍白，在深灰色衬衫领（的）映衬下，这男人几乎是憔悴（的），唯有一双眼睛亮（得）惊人——他（的）眼睛总是很亮（的），好像世界上没有什么东西能抹去那光亮。
- 人的心 | human heart
- 她的身影 | her silhouette
- 他的眼睛 | his eyes
- 斩魂使的脸 | the Soul Slayer's face
- 汪徵的眼泪 | Wang Zheng's tears
- 赵云澜的下唇 | Zhao Yunlan's bottom lip
- 海市蜃楼的幻影 | visions of a mirage (海市蜃楼: castles in the air!)
- 在深灰色衬衫领的映衬下 | under the contrast of the dark grey shirt collar (…alright so I'm not sure if 映衬 is actually a noun here but it's the 映衬 of the 衬衫领, if you get what I mean)
Describing a noun – adjective/descriptor phrase 的 noun:
- 乌黑的倒影 | pitch black 的 reflection
- 殷红的血迹 | dark red 的 bloodstain
- 第一口自由的空气 | first mouthful of free 的 air (idiomatic: first breath of freedom)
- 皱巴巴的符咒 | very wrinkled 的 amulet paper(??? how is this even translated)
- 一致的意见 | identical 的 opinion (idiomatic: unanimous agreement)
- 嘴里的话 | in the mouth 的 words (idiomatic: the words he was saying) (…is 嘴里 even like an adjective. sorta?)
- 被压抑了千年的民族 | 被 oppressed for a thousand years 的 race (idiomatic: the race who'd been oppressed for a millennium …………how does one even literally translate 被??)
- 望向同一个方向的时候 | looking in one same direction 的 time (idiomatic: when she kept looking in one direction)
Miscellaneous 的ing:
- 跟个大烟鬼似的 | just like a massive chain smoker (…wait should this even be here 似的 is a word of its own)
- 自然是不肯的 | naturally she was unwilling
- 几乎是憔悴的 | almost fragile
- 总是很亮的 | always very bright (all impossible to translate non-idiomatically LOL. also apparently these are called nominal expressions? noun-ified…)
Adverbing – descriptor 地 verb:
- 缓缓地说 | slowly 地 said
- 眼泪大滴大滴地落下来 | tears in big drops 地 fell down
- 飞快地点着了一根 | swiftly 地 lit one (cigarette)
- 低低地应了一声 | softly 地 responded with one sound (idiomatic: made a soft sound of agreement)
- 艰难地睁着眼睛 | with difficulty 地 kept his eyes open
- 惊人地达成了一致的意见 | startlingly 地 arrived at an unanimous opinion
- 一动不动地站在原地 | motionlessly 地 stood at his original spot (idiomatic: didn't move an inch from where he stood)
- 直直地盯着地面 | absently/continuously 地 stared at the ground
- 轻轻地说 | lightly/softly 地 said
Describing extent or manner – verb/adjective 得 descriptor:
- 下得没轻没重 | dosed/drugged 得 with no good sense (idiomatic: vastly overdosed them LOL)
- 呛得他流下泪来 | choked 得 his tears began falling (idiomatic: choked him to the point of tears)
- 浇灭得一丝灰烬也不剩 | extinguished 得 not one trace of ash remained (idiomatic: extinguished until there was nothing left)
- 刮得他眼眶有些泛红 | blew 得 the rim of his eyes reddened a little (idiomatic: …eye-watering wind? I guess?)
- 坐得松松垮垮 | sat 得 in a super slack/lax manner (idiomatic: sprawl, probably)
- 眼睛亮得惊人 | eyes bright 得 startling people (idiomatic: shockingly bright eyes) (also the only adjective-modifying one I could find this chapter, ha, talk about under-representation)
Feel free to put any questions in the comments and I'll 尽力 to clarify with my less-than-rigorous grammar knowledge! Or general thoughts. Like whether Zhao Yunlan makes homework any better idk.
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Date: 2022-02-05 11:31 am (UTC)Hah, I thought I'd be good at this, but actually I only got about two thirds of the answers correct (18/28). I think it wasn't because I don't know the usage so much as because a lot of these were really hard sentences for me, with a lot of vocab that I don't know, so in some cases I wasn't sure what the word in parentheses was supposed to be doing to the words around it or what parts of speech they were and just had to guess randomly. Plus I had to paste a lot of stuff into a simplified-to-traditional converter before I could recognize the characters. >_> I actually did know all the individual characters! (except for 憔 and 悴, which I gather mostly come as a pair), but a lot of the compounds were new to me, and I could only guess some of them from context. (I'm not sure whether I'm more proud that I could read as much as I could or dismayed that there is still so much vocabulary I don't know... ay.)
Turns out I'm also very bad at figuring out when to use 地 because I'm only expecting it after reduplicated adjectives (I think Cantonese only uses 地 after reduplication), so I was great on stuff like 轻轻地 but not so much 艰难地 etc. Like, I'd look at it and think 的 didn't really make sense either, but then I'd just have no idea what the grammar was doing because... it turns out Canto has a whole other construction for non-reduplicated adverbs. XD I've actually never thought about this before (for a while there after I read the answer key I was like "wait how the heck does Canto actually do this though???" until I managed to think of some examples), so I feel like I learned several things here!
whether Zhao Yunlan makes homework any better idk
Yes, yes he does. :D Plus, even though I haven't read the novel, guessing stuff from context is definitely easier when I at least sort of know what the context is, and knowing the show helped quite a bit. If I was trying to read a bunch of sentences about weird ghosty stuff and had no idea what was supposed to be going on I'd probably just give up in despair.
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Date: 2022-02-05 01:29 pm (UTC)……………y'know, I actually forgot to consider the difficulty vocab would pose, if you would believe it. And this right after I just said elsewhere that Priest novels are literally not easy to read XD gonna blame this squarely on vocab being the literal least of my problems in Japanese learning given hanzi/kanji LOL
Anyway 18/28 is a pretty great score considering that! 幸苦了 for getting through all that! And definite yay for knowing all the characters (aside from 憔悴, which yes I've never seen separately ever). I'm glad this helped you pick up another difference from Canto!
"weird ghosty stuff" LOL, accurate. If any other similar grammar points pop up I wouldn't mind doing a couple more posts along these lines if it's entertaining and/or helpful. Any excuse to reread the novel is always a delight!
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Date: 2022-02-05 02:30 pm (UTC)I actually forgot to consider the difficulty vocab would pose
I mean, that's understandable! And it's kind of unpredictable what people will know. Like, I'd never seen 似的 before, which I'm guessing is probably very common, but I did know 海市蜃楼...
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Date: 2022-02-05 02:35 pm (UTC)Haha, high fives on that! Or at least, one of those stuck in my head and the other very much didn't ...
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Date: 2022-02-05 02:53 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2022-02-05 03:16 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2022-02-05 05:05 pm (UTC)I don't actually remember where I learned that phrase myself... I think maybe in an old HK production of 神雕大侠 / Return of the Condor Heroes? Anyway it was a few years ago, but I don't think I've ever missed it in my flashcards (unlike so many other things), so yeah, it's evidently memorable!
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Date: 2022-02-05 03:25 pm (UTC)Hahaha what even is counting. Funny that you both ended up with the same score though!
Anyway I plonked a bunch of translations for the phrases under the second cut now that I've been reminded of the obvious.
I'd say 似的 is pretty common, but then again there's so many ways of expressing similarity/resemblance that it's hardly surprising you haven't seen this specific one before.
Also I didn't actually know how the 蜃 in 海市蜃楼 was read until looking it up today, lol.
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Date: 2022-02-05 03:55 pm (UTC)amulet paper(??? how is this even translated)
Ahaha, yeah. The subtitles I've seen usually do call it an amulet, which always confuses me because I think of the English word "amulet" as referring to a pendant or maybe a brooch or something. But I guess technically "amulet" just means a "protective charm or ornament." (Not that that helps me much, since I also think of "charms" and "ornaments" as pendant/jewelry-type accessories...)
I'm impressed by your success at translating 得 literally, I don't think I could have even tried. XD
the race who'd been oppressed for a millennium …………how does one even literally translate 被??)
Just using passive voice seems pretty literal to me, but this is reminding me of an old professor of mine who used to give us literal translations of complicated passive past participles in Ancient Greek using the format "the having-been-oppressed-for-a-millenium race." (It was kind of necessary to think about it that way because Greek would sometimes give you sentences like "The having-completed-three-extra-hours-of-work-before-deciding-to-go-home man was late for dinner.")
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Date: 2022-02-05 04:20 pm (UTC)Tbh I'm pretty sure I've literally never looked up the actual dictionary definitions for a lot of these… like I've context-learned 映衬 vaguely as "offset by" in the colour/visual sense but what even does antithesis mean, I need a second dictionary to understand this dictionary entry XD
I think of the English word "amulet" as referring to a pendant or maybe a brooch or something
Exactly! The associations are completely different! It's just a floppy piece of paper! "Charm" sorta works for Japanese omamori at least, but sounds too positive(?)/non-curse-related for 符咒. And ornaments = Christmas trees only to me… not that it wouldn't be an absolutely hilarious mental image. Begone, Santa!!!
Not gonna lie, I was looking forward to reaching the 得 section because it's the fun stuff.
The having-completed-three-extra-hours-of-work-before-deciding-to-go-home man
I straight-up heard this in my head as "the 加班整整三个小时才决定回家的 man" (but with "man" specifically pronounced in the distinctly-Chinese "很man" manner…) so, mood.
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Date: 2022-02-05 05:11 pm (UTC)Yeah, "protective ornament" wouldn't make any sense, but does sound vaguely festive. XD And now I have a mental image of Zhao Yunlan crushing a Christmas ornament up into a ball and eating it.
"the 加班整整三个小时才决定回家的 man"
Okay cool, I haven't just been imagining that this is a place where Greek and Chinese kind of overlap. XD
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Date: 2022-02-06 03:22 am (UTC)And now I have a mental image of Zhao Yunlan crushing a Christmas ornament up into a ball and eating it.
…I can see him doing that with CNY decorations though. The most ghost-proof festivities in all of Dragon City and beyond XD
I haven't just been imagining that this is a place where Greek and Chinese kind of overlap.
Nope, English is just clearly a wimp about letting us tack on 300-word-long descriptors like this. Why!!
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Date: 2022-02-05 02:01 pm (UTC)I feel like I have a decent grasp on 的 and 地 and still not the slightest clue about 得, LOL. One day ...
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Date: 2022-02-05 03:19 pm (UTC)Added
Chinglishpretty-literal translations for the phrases under the use cases cut, if it helps clear things up a little!One giveaway for 得 imo is that the descriptor comes afterwards, which is pretty much the complete reverse from the other constructions… though I think part of what makes it tricky is that the equivalent-ish English expressions are all over the place, compared to possessive 的 or adverbing 地 which have pretty standard forms.
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Date: 2022-02-05 04:03 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2022-02-05 04:04 pm (UTC)how does one even literally translate 被
It just functions to change the sentence from active to passive, right? So I don't think you can translate 被 by itself.
…wait should this even be here 似的 is a word of its own)
Yeah now that you point it out, this instance probably isn't a great example to demonstrate miscellaneous 的-ing haha 🤔
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Date: 2022-02-05 04:25 pm (UTC)The hilarious thing is, I had unconsciously filed 被 under "literal translation available ☑️" in my head… except that I forgot the word I would've used isn't even English. Wrong lever, brain!!!
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Date: 2022-02-05 02:55 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2022-02-05 03:44 pm (UTC)\o/ yay for non-technical descriptions! I think 地's reasonably straightforward once you do get it…?
the informal use of 的 in everything in most online spaces has only confused me further
SO VERY 超级的 MOOD. One thing the internet is absolutely detrimental for, lol.
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Date: 2022-02-05 03:47 pm (UTC)Douban and Weibo truly the source of my improved reading fluency and unwitting use of 网络流行语 in everything
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Date: 2022-02-05 03:53 pm (UTC)There should be a mandatory warning label: Get that reading fluency! …but at what cost
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Date: 2022-02-05 06:56 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2022-02-06 03:17 am (UTC)FMA intro voice Humankind cannot gain anything without first giving something in return…
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Date: 2022-02-06 08:54 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2022-02-07 03:01 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2022-02-08 01:31 pm (UTC)Good to know! I'll… try to aim for something more manageable if I do this again, haha XD
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Date: 2022-02-09 09:26 am (UTC)I think CQL et al. translate 符咒 as "talisman"? Not sure it's the same word but it seems to work.
Like whether Zhao Yunlan makes homework any better
Shen Wei, probably: Zhao Yunlan makes everything better. That said, Yunlan ah, it's hard to grade papers with your head in my lap...
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Date: 2022-02-09 02:03 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2022-02-09 03:02 pm (UTC)I'm glad that people are still getting mileage out of this despite the, well, Priest-typical vocab XD よかった〜
的 and の are so damnably similar in their use that it took ages to train myself out of reflexively [adjective]の[noun]-ing all the time! And I still slip up if I'm not paying attention…
得 can be spotted by how the verb/adjective being modified comes first, and sorta overlaps with ほど imo? But your description is definitely not inaccurate LOL
And yeah talisman is definitely the word! Those pesky overpowered post-its.